Fake "liberal" apologists for Islamism / Islam / Rational Wiki / Secularism / theocracy / Uncategorized

The adolescence and intellectual and moral cowardice of James B Russel, David Gerard, and Olivia Guest of the “RationalWiki” Facebook page…pseudo-“rationalist”, artificial “feminist”, and fake “liberal” apologists for oppression of the so-called “Muslim world” under Islam.

I innocently wandered over to the Rational Wiki FB page thinking I would find like-minded people and if there were disagreements it would result in rational debate. Olivia Guest had posted an article by Mona Eltahaway in which she argues that Islam is not the source of misogyny in the Arab world. I made a comment that I thought this was dishonest. From then on I was bombarded by bizarre threats to be sent to “a gulag”. I was called a racist and Islamophobic. I was assumed to be a libertarian and anti-feminist when I am neither. I was assumed to be a hater of Arabs when I am engaged to be married to a Tunisian. Olivia wrote “YOU’RE GONNA GET CUT HOMES.” whatever that means…it was extremely bizarre and then she posted the Rational Wiki page on Islamophobia which has to be read. It is incredibly cowardly and naive. They REALLY got pissed when I quoted the Qu’ran on women’s place in Islamic society and Islamic marriage. With no hyperbole or exaggeration i can say that I have had more “rational” discussions about Islam with Pakistani Taliban supporters.
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ABel AShes shared Faisal Saeed Al Mutar’s status.
about a minute ago
I agree with this so much, I read it on the New York Times.

“Fighting female objectification and discrimination and violence against women isn’t simply the job of women; it must also be the pursuit of men.”
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ABel AShes
22 minutes ago
Fake liberals only have liberal principals when the enemy of liberal ideals is “Western”. Real liberals have liberal principals on a global scale with no regard to borders, nations, race, or ethnicity.
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Criticize Islam using the Qu’ran and Hadiths and the Bible (which is also part of Islamic scripture) and this is what you will get from thse allegedly “liberal”, “feminist”, “rational”, “atheists”:

Olivia Guest RATWIKI IS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR ISLAMOPHOBIA
3 mins · Like · 1

Olivia Guest YOU WILL GET CUT HOMES
3 mins · Like · 1

Yes, once again the Qu’ran and Hadiths are “Islamophobic” and criticism of them is equated with xenophobia.

Olivia Guest
Yesterday at 10:28am
“But is it really that simple? If that misogyny is so innately Arab, why is there such wide variance between Arab societies? Why did Egypt’s hateful “they” elect only 2 percent women to its post-revolutionary legislature, while Tunisia’s hateful “they” elected 27 percent, far short of half but still significantly more than America’s 17 percent? Why are so many misogynist Arab practices as or more common in the non-Arab societies of sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia? After all, nearly every society in history has struggled with sexism, and maybe still is. Just in the U.S., for example, women could not vote until 1920; even today, their access to basic reproductive health care is backsliding. We don’t think about this as an issue of American men, white men, or Christian men innately and irreducibly hating women. Why, then, should we be so ready to believe it about Arab Muslims?”

The Real Roots of Sexism in the Middle East (It’s Not Islam, Race, or ‘Hate’)
Arab societies suffer from deep misogyny, but the problem is not as…
THE ATLANTIC|BY MAX FISHER
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22 people like this.

Ian Gobert Because we gotta have someone to HATE
Yesterday at 10:30am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert Oh and they’re brown too apparently.
Yesterday at 10:31am · Like · 5

Chris Armstrong Because better reasons are almost certainly more complicated reasons and we can’t be having that can we.
Yesterday at 10:32am · Like · 5

Paul S Madley Tunisia may be the only place that the Arab Spring has genuinely worked. Their new constitution is probably worrying neighbouring leaders. Espousing as it does, equality and generally not be a cnut to each other.
Yesterday at 10:32am · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Also cnuts are tasty.
Yesterday at 10:33am · Like · 3

Ian Gobert is that anything like a pnut?
Yesterday at 10:33am · Like · 3

Chris Armstrong I need to have a typing reset, that’s like the 15th time today I’ve just said “almost certainly”. I mean, it’s a *fabulous* piece of weasel wording, but it’s getting excessive…
Yesterday at 10:33am · Like

Olivia Guest Also Malaysia, for those who think Islam is evil.
Yesterday at 10:34am · Like

Ian Gobert But Elmo told me that Islam is the light…
Yesterday at 10:35am · Like

Chris Armstrong Thank you for your highly specific feedback.
Yesterday at 10:39am · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine i hope you do understand that “muslim” and “arab” are not synonyms, right?

because egypt is made up mostly of ethnic egyptains, tunisia is a mix of arab and berber, and the concentration of arabs in power (the elite) in the two nations is distinctive relative to their populations.

none of which detracts from the fact that sub-saharan and oriental nations that are muslim do indeed have more misogyny AND misandry then other areas.
Yesterday at 10:39am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Zech Lakatos fuck off
Yesterday at 10:40am · Like · 6

Ian Gobert How does multiculturalism fit into this? More like not all Islamic countries aren’t crazy misogynistic countries that Americans apparently like to portray them as.
Yesterday at 10:40am · Like

Ian Gobert “Oriental”? What is this… the fucking 1890s?
Yesterday at 10:41am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine I’m confused… you started out well, then said misandry without joking….
Yesterday at 10:41am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine i’m a student of history Ian Gobert – asia for me is what you call the “middle east” and the orient is anything to the left of india, before the coast china. anything left of china is in Oceania.
Yesterday at 10:42am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Except that’s NOT what the article is saying, Zech. So go fuck yourself.
Yesterday at 10:43am · Like · 2

Alexander Ikeda “Just in the U.S., for example, women could not vote until 1920; even today, their access to basic reproductive health care is backsliding. We don’t think about this as an issue of American men, white men, or Christian men innately and irreducibly hating women.”

wait we don’t
Yesterday at 10:43am · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Zech I’m being full on serious here. If you cannot read get out.
Yesterday at 10:43am · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Oh Alexander Ikeda’s back
Yesterday at 10:44am · Like

Olivia Guest TOP LEL
Yesterday at 10:44am · Like

Ian Gobert Madjai: You’re in the vast minority with respect to the use of the word “Oriental”. Most people consider it demeaning and antiquated.
Yesterday at 10:44am · Like · 1

Chris Armstrong “What an insane prospect, that believers of a sexist religion/ideology treat women like second class citizen”

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” – Indeed. It’s almost as if it’s got nothing to do with the specific formulation of the religion and entirely to do with the social culture that devised all these separate misogynistic elements and the current political and social culture that enforces them.
Yesterday at 10:44am · Like · 1

Chris Armstrong But, as I said above, that’s a *complicated* explanation. We can’t be having that when we can just say “ALL TEH MUZZIES ARE TEH BAD GUYS!!!”
Yesterday at 10:45am · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine Olivia Guest – i should be clearer – the misandry as am referring to is the anti-gay, anti emotional, anti free expression type. gays are men too…
Yesterday at 10:45am · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine believe me when i say i know it’s a MUCH SMALLER problem then the misogyny.
Yesterday at 10:46am · Like · 1

Alexander Ikeda sexism predates abrahamic religions but they have done much better job justifying and proliferating it
Yesterday at 10:47am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert “Justifying” it.
Yesterday at 10:47am · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine SEXISM – that’s the damned word i was looking for when i wrote misogyny and misandry. sexism

that’s the word i couldn’t remember.
Yesterday at 10:48am · Like · 3

Olivia Guest TL;DR
Yesterday at 10:50am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert DR
Yesterday at 10:50am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine don’t say misandry, it signals something else
Yesterday at 10:51am · Edited · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman But Olivia, the Islamic world is homogeneous and monolithic.
Yesterday at 10:51am · Like · 5

Madjai Sabine Ian Gobert – *shrug* very, very few people complain about my use of the word. the only thing i get asked is what i mean by it, and that is very rare.

i use a lot of language that is considered “antiquated.” just the way i am.
Yesterday at 10:51am · Like

Ian Gobert Madjai: So do you use “Occidental” at all to refer to the West?
Yesterday at 10:51am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine “europan” or “occidental” yes. both.
Yesterday at 10:51am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Hayes: Can’t tell if trolling or serious.
Yesterday at 10:52am · Like

Hayes Hartman I’ll use the phrases occidental and oriental if if I intend on sounding archaic.
Yesterday at 10:52am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman My tongue was entirely within my cheek when I made that post.
Yesterday at 10:52am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Poe’s Law, everyone!
Yesterday at 10:53am · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli Why are we doing language shame right now
Yesterday at 10:54am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine Ian Gobert – i am fairly consistent with my language, however strange it may be.

i also use “parlement” – though that is simply because i think the spelling is more elegant.
Yesterday at 10:55am · Like

Olivia Guest FUCKING HELL SOAS SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES DIEAL WITH IT
Yesterday at 10:55am · Like

Olivia Guest http://www.soas.ac.uk

SOAS, University of London (The School of Oriental and African Studies)
http://www.soas.ac.uk
SOAS, University of London is the world’s leading institution for the study of A…See More
Yesterday at 10:55am · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Cybele Pauli happy?
Yesterday at 10:56am · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine Olivia Guest – soas?
Yesterday at 10:56am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine just mentioning one of the most famous schools that studies the Orient and Africa to show that “Orient” is acceptable.
Yesterday at 10:57am · Like

Madjai Sabine … googling now…
Yesterday at 10:57am · Like

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine I linked to it above.
Yesterday at 10:57am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Except sexism in religion was born from sexism that already existed in society pre-Abrahamic religion.
Yesterday at 10:57am · Like · 6

Cybele Pauli Yes I am happy *goes back to gnawing prescriptivist bones*
Yesterday at 10:58am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest DAE want Zech around?
Yesterday at 10:58am · Edited · Like

Cybele Pauli Hey bro Zech WTF
Yesterday at 10:58am · Like

Paul S Madley RACIST SAILORS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/…/Peninsular_and_Oriental_Steam…
Yesterday at 10:58am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Or in pretty much in the vast majority of societies worldwide. What’s your god damn point, Zech?
Yesterday at 10:59am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest You are not welcome here Zech
Yesterday at 11:00am · Like

Madjai Sabine *sigh* fellow sentients, could we please refrain from mocking or attacking the gentlemen who asked for clarification on my word usage. i took no offense to his questions, and find it uncomfortable that you are offended on my behalf.
Yesterday at 11:00am · Edited · Like

Ian Gobert Maybe we don’t stone rape victims like they do in some Islamic countries, but we do victim shame all the same.
Yesterday at 11:00am · Like

Cybele Pauli
Cybele Pauli’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:00am · Like · 1

Chris Armstrong “i also use “parlement” – though that is simply because i think the spelling is more elegant.”

But the linguistic mafia will run me over with a bus if I break my vow of descriptivism… but…. just…. but……
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest The only person we are mocking is Zech, don’t worry Madjai. We’re all friends here except Zech.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 1

Sam Butler Zech, you don’t have any interesting ideas.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert Madjai: I know that Olivia and others mean well. I’m not offended by what they had said.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 1

Paul S Madley I am.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine no, they won’t. i have earned my grammar nazi badge. the employment of it CORRECTLY does not incite them.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like

Olivia Guest So much verbal diarrhoea
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like · 1

Paul S Madley Just to be contrary.
Yesterday at 11:01am · Like

Cybele Pauli I am critical of langshame on my own behalf tyvm
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Wait, Sarah Palin is here, Olivia?
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Olivia Guest omg wut u avin a bubble m8?
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Paul S Madley Madjai, “grammar fascist”. Not “nazi”.
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Olivia Guest LOL
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Olivia Guest so much trolling now. I promise it’s all jokes.
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Ian Gobert Excuse me, but that’s “grammar totalitarian”, not “fascist”.
Yesterday at 11:02am · Like

Olivia Guest excuse me but it goes deeper
Yesterday at 11:03am · Like

Olivia Guest semantic and lexical totalitarian
Yesterday at 11:03am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine
Madjai Sabine’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:03am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert OH MY GOD! IT IS TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!
Yesterday at 11:03am · Like

Chris Armstrong I’m sure we’ve had this conversation before. And it ended in the guy going around in circles, eventually getting banned, and then complaining to all his friends that the “so-called” Rational Wiki kicked him out for not being liberal enough (conveniently not mentioning what he was doing, yet openly admitting to trolling for the sake of it)…. How about we just save time and just skip straight to the kicking, because I can’t be fucked with this again.
Yesterday at 11:03am · Like · 4

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:04am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest kick lakatos
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like

Olivia Guest shall I?
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like

Olivia Guest
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like

Olivia Guest HELLO I AM FEMILISK AND THIS IS NOT EVEN MY FINAL FORM
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like · 5

Ian Gobert Can you just mute him? Why embolden him, potentially, by banning him?
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like

Chris Armstrong
Chris Armstrong’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:05am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert ZERG RAID!!!!!! KEKEKEKEKEKEKE
Yesterday at 11:06am · Like

Madjai Sabine Daniel Hernandez – entirely true – and had generally superior “race relations” as well.
Yesterday at 11:06am · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine Daniel Hernandez -of course, there is the matter of the armenian genocide, but that is an extremely rare event in the ottomanni history.
Yesterday at 11:07am · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli Do I sense terror over criticizing Islam or something?
Yesterday at 11:10am · Like · 1

Olivia Guest You can criticise and should. Eveything. Afterall this is CriticalWiki.
Yesterday at 11:10am · Like · 3

Chris Armstrong “Can you just mute him? Why embolden him, potentially, by banning him?”

Gods I **WISH** Facebook’s half-arsed admin tools were even an iota of a percent this powerful.
Yesterday at 11:11am · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli #drink
Yesterday at 11:13am · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Im just going to start drinking okay
Yesterday at 11:13am · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke blah blah multiculturalism at all cost blah blah religious apologetics blah blah blah

It’s your tone Zech…
Yesterday at 11:13am · Like

Miles Dockterburke Don’t jump in like an ass hat and people won’t treat you like one
Yesterday at 11:14am · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine if i may return to the OP?

i have hypotheses regarding the causal and corollary relationships between gender issues – sexism – and the islamic world, however none of them can be classified as theories because i lack sufficient data to formally test them.

the forerunner of my hypotheses is the cultural tribalism hypothesis, the idea that the regions, unrelated to an overarching authority, each developed harsh gender roles independantly, with shared thematic elements, which graft onto the incoming religious or political authority.

unfortunately, this theory falls apart when dealing with egypt and the lands formerly occupied by carthage.

technically it falls apart when dealing with the hellas as well, but that is more complicated.
Yesterday at 11:14am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman
Hayes Hartman’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:14am · Like · 4

Cybele Pauli Madjal please continue with your concept. I am interested.
Yesterday at 11:17am · Like · 1

Corlene Rose Back to basics & OP? From the article:
“The actual, root causes are disputed, complicated, and often controversial. But you can’t cure a symptom without at least acknowledging the disease, and that disease is not race, religion, or ethnicity.”
Yesterday at 11:17am · Like

Ian Gobert Is it too early to #drink?
Yesterday at 11:18am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman I am of the opinion that geography, economics, and a degree of happenstance are responsible for defining gender roles, religion and ideology are also defined by the aforementioned conditions. Trying to separate religion from the rest of human society and charge it with exclusive agency in creating a cultural practice is ridiculous.
Yesterday at 11:18am · Like · 5

Ian Gobert But we seem to have stopped evolving socially once we became less tribal and agrarian.
Yesterday at 11:19am · Like

Cybele Pauli Ill be sure to think of geography the next time a fundamentalist Christian says I shouldnt have the right to be married.
Yesterday at 11:21am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman That is not to say that the introduction of new religions does not fundamentally alter cultures, it does, but such transformations are also driven by related developments, e.g war and political changes.
Yesterday at 11:21am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert TD;DR
Yesterday at 11:21am · Like · 3

Hayes Hartman Hinterlands is one of my favorite words.
Yesterday at 11:22am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert Okay, Isaac Asimov.
Yesterday at 11:23am · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli Ok Zech you gotta dial down the THREAT TO THE EARTH rhetoric so I can be on your side
Yesterday at 11:23am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Proximity to trade routes (read navigable waterways) tends to reduce socially conservative tendencies within a population.
Yesterday at 11:24am · Edited · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Or “fly over” country.
Yesterday at 11:25am · Like

Madjai Sabine wow, i go to grab a drink, and come back find my post buried deeply. Cybele Pauli give me a moment to read up.

Daniel Hernandez – the hypothesis i am employing is more focus on a pre-classical starting point.
Yesterday at 11:25am · Like

Cybele Pauli Ugghhh
Yesterday at 11:27am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert The endgame for civilization is the dumbing down of the human race.
Yesterday at 11:27am · Like

Madjai Sabine Zech Lakatos – the endgame for civilization is either too far away to reliably predict, or shortly ending in mushroom clouds. reason is but one potential path to take.
Yesterday at 11:27am · Like

Cybele Pauli Madjai is actually drinking haha
Yesterday at 11:28am · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Don’t forget climate change Madjai
Yesterday at 11:28am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman You do realize that many of the world’s Muslims aren’t ethnically Arab right?
Yesterday at 11:28am · Unlike · 4

Madjai Sabine only pop Cybele. it’s 1pm here.
Yesterday at 11:28am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman Not that anyone knows what an ethnic Arab is.
Yesterday at 11:28am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine Hayes Hartman – i made that point near the beginning of the thread.
Yesterday at 11:29am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman The word Arab has so many problems with it.
Yesterday at 11:29am · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke Indonesia being the most populous Islamic country.
Yesterday at 11:30am · Unlike · 1

Hayes Hartman The phrase “endgame of civilization” is giving me a Hegel-on.
Yesterday at 11:30am · Like · 5

Hayes Hartman One that elected a female head of state, something we in the USA have yet to do.
Yesterday at 11:30am · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine Hayes Hartman – ethnic arab is a culture originating in the arabian peninsula approximately 5400 B.C.E. with an early homogenizing of local nomadic and semi-nomadic tribes and clans.

beyond that enters the realm of semantics.
Yesterday at 11:32am · Like · 3

Cybele Pauli Nah we have a black President and all the racisms went away after… yay
Yesterday at 11:32am · Like · 7

Hayes Hartman From a geopolitical stand point, instability in the Middle East/Central Asia (or anywhere) is concerning. That being said, radical Islamic traditionalists do not pose a real threat to the prevailing liberal paradigm in the West or elsewhere. Reactionary tendencies within the developed world are far more concerning.
Yesterday at 11:35am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman E.g fascism and racism.
Yesterday at 11:36am · Like

Hayes Hartman Do you even know what Shariah law is? Could you define it for me?
Yesterday at 11:36am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Shariah law simply means laws rooted in Islamic jurisprudence. It does not entail the implementation of ultra-traditional practices.
Yesterday at 11:38am · Like · 4

Ian Gobert We asked YOU to define what Shariah law is, not what Iran has done.
Yesterday at 11:39am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Shariah law as understood by a Muslim in Nigeria is likely fundamentally different from Shariah as understood by an Indian Muslim.
Yesterday at 11:40am · Edited · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox Cybele Pauli : Oh! I know what went wrong. Obama’s mother was white. If he’d only had a black mother, all the racisms would’ve gone away completely.
Yesterday at 11:41am · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Christian jurisprudence
Yesterday at 11:41am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert The sad irony that a lot of Christian Republicans are scared of the “threat” of Shariah law, yet want to enact their own theocratic government.
Yesterday at 11:41am · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sharia
Yesterday at 11:42am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman From Pew “In Pakistan, for example, three-quarters of Muslims say that non-Muslims are very free to practice their religion, and fully 96% of those who share this assessment say it is “a good thing.”
Yesterday at 11:42am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine ok, on to a more detailed explanation of my hypothesis, as requested by Cybele Pauli and Daniel Hernandez:

the idea is that, during the birth of civilization era, where the fertile crescent began to develop the mixture of nomadic and settled communities, a series of extremely localized cultures began to emerge. these culture had minimal to non-existent contact at first, and thus developed their gender and socio-political values in situ.

as they grew, stabilized, and formed city-states, trade and cultural exchange encountered the ideas present in other city states and tribes who moved and protected goods. wars were fought, and during brief periods of forced allegiance and occupation, one cultures religious or political ideas would become enforced over another, but the localized tribal and clan cultural values would be adopted to encourage compliance. as these city states evolved into nation-states, kingdoms, and empires, the process of enfolding these cities would apply an overarching political or religious theme, but co-op the tribal values to encourage adoption of the political structures, and so when they expanded or spread out, these values form various regions would be carried around.

one of the major components of this, is the development and systematization of local cultural values that were originally shared into a more universal system, that would in turn reinforce the views in other areas. the “everybody else does it this way, and the big strong ones do it alot, therefore it must work” concept.

the reason this falls apart, imho, is because of egypt. in pre-pharaonic and pharaonic egypt, women were outright equals in the eyes of the states, and cities. they had the right of marriage, of divorce, of property and business ownership, the works. even the right to hold position in government such as it was.

you cannot find a larger, more powerful state in the pre-classical world, and so if the hypothesis were to hold true, all of it’s neighbours should have adopted at least in part their cultural and gender views. but the opposite is what occured.
Yesterday at 11:42am · Like · 3

Cybele Pauli That is very fascinating Madjai thank you!
Yesterday at 11:44am · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli So the way we would get rid of our barbarism would be to say “…but the Muslims”?
Yesterday at 11:46am · Like · 1

Sam Butler he’s still going?
Yesterday at 11:47am · Like · 1

Roger M. Wilcox That’s not fair to Sarah Palin, Zech. You know she can’t spell racism.
Yesterday at 11:48am · Like · 4

Madjai Sabine Cybele Pauli – “”o the way we would get rid of our barbarism would be to say “…but the Muslims”?””

to whom is this directed?
Yesterday at 11:48am · Like

Cybele Pauli Madjai- Daniel Hernandez.
Yesterday at 11:49am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman I consider laws based upon religious texts fundamentally flawed as well, but my point about Shariah being an undefined/subjective term stands.
Yesterday at 11:50am · Like · 2

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 11:51am · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Im going to keep drinking lol
Yesterday at 11:52am · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman Your tendency to use the word Arab as a synonym for Muslim is telling.
Yesterday at 11:52am · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke I see that to remain an active member of this group I’m going to have to make a trip to the liquor store.
Yesterday at 11:53am · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine so…. uh…. the hypothesis i put forward… anyone care to comment, or is this just going to continue very much into awkward territory that cites no sources and resorts to derogatory terminology?
Yesterday at 11:54am · Edited · Like

Madjai Sabine .. also with a veneer of implied personal attacks?
Yesterday at 11:55am · Like

Cybele Pauli Im too ignorant of Mid East history to comment on it, though I think it is sensible.
Yesterday at 11:57am · Like · 5

Miles Dockterburke Don’t go back to that Zech…
Yesterday at 11:57am · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke What Cybele said.
Yesterday at 11:57am · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman I was not implying that you were racist, my comment was intended to point out your tendency to treat Islam like some monolithic entity.
Yesterday at 11:57am · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine is Olivia Guest still here? she’s been awful quiet the last little bit…
Yesterday at 11:59am · Like

Ultron Ganondorf Most Arabs are Muslims, which a small Christian, Baha and Druze minority, but most Muslims are actually Asian not Arabic.
http://encounteringislam.org/misconceptions#2
Yesterday at 12:00pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Do you live in a Muslim country Zech? Have you ever actually been to one?
Yesterday at 12:00pm · Like

Madjai Sabine Zech Lakatos – i presume you imply the qualifier “in recent history” to that sentiment, regarding religious ecstasy and “other religions” ?
Yesterday at 12:01pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke I have been to several and I was treated more graciously than in many parts of the USA.
Yesterday at 12:01pm · Like

Cybele Pauli “Secular liberals who worry more about “Islamophobia” than about the actual doctrine of Islam are guilty of a failure of empathy.” With this I agree fully. Would you defend some abstract concept of “Catholicism” over my real and true desire to separate myself from the Catholic community and it’s ideologies?
Yesterday at 12:03pm · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Hayes primary criticism of your points (if i may hazard a guess) is that you simplify the issue and as he said treat Islam as a monolith.
Yesterday at 12:03pm · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman ” Islam marries religious ecstasy and sectarian hatred in a way that other religions do not.” Have you ever been to Mississippi?
Yesterday at 12:03pm · Like · 7

Miles Dockterburke You are also unwilling to treat the myriad of failings in the west with the same critical viewpoint.
Yesterday at 12:04pm · Like

Madjai Sabine Hayes Hartman – or india? how about vietnam or china (falung gong and the attacks on it)

and that doesn’t even get into the history aspect, cathars, pelagius and his followers, the darian sect, all competitors of catholicism – which then had new fights with protestantism, calvinism, anglicanism…
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman The mindset that Islam is an inherently, if not uniquely, repressive faith is simplistic and unsubstantiated.
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine religious ecstasy has been married to sectarian hatred even when there have been multiple deities…
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Scientology…
Yesterday at 12:05pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Or the radical fringe of the BJP in India, the list goes on.
Yesterday at 12:06pm · Like

Chris Armstrong I’m not sure that’s really specific enough for an explanatory hypothesis in this field. It’s kinda like saying “the solar system formed from compressed dust”. It’s very broad, even in the detailed mode.
Yesterday at 12:07pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke You make some valid points, that’s why I admonished you to stop acting up, and you did to your credit. The problem is that they are entangled with a western-centric view and a lack of critical examination of the role the west has played in the history of these nations. You also are failing to look at the quite different problems that we in the developed nations are causing for the entire globe. I would submit that poisoning the earth to the point that it may be unlivable is a far worse crime than can be leveled against those countries.
Yesterday at 12:08pm · Like

Ian Gobert Still waiting for your own definition of Shariah.
Yesterday at 12:08pm · Like

Madjai Sabine Daniel Hernandez – that they originated in isolated tribal communities, and were systemically reinforced over time as civilization became broader, and the regionality of the restrictive gender roles comes form the cross-cultural reinforcement.

the reason egypt makes it fall apart is because egypt was the superpower of it’s time, in a regional environment, and had influence on many many states, but did not cause the gender views it held to be spread.
Yesterday at 12:08pm · Like · 1

Olivia Guest I’m here
Yesterday at 12:09pm · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine Zech Lakatos – may i request for future posts, that you consider the use of paragraph breaks and conceptual separation? it would make the walls of text easier to assimilate.
Yesterday at 12:10pm · Like · 2

Olivia Guest What’s the femilisk required for now?
Yesterday at 12:10pm · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman I share your disdain for unpleasant elements of the Islamic faith, but your seeming insistence on singling out Muslims for criticism is irrational.
Yesterday at 12:11pm · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine Olivia Guest – 2 questions.

1. did you read the theory i posted? (i ask because based on the reading i have done of forum posts yopu are an active content generator)

2. am i allowed to split a section of this post into a new thread, since it is becoming hard to follow the intellectual discourse from the heated debate?
Yesterday at 12:11pm · Like · 2

Olivia Guest I read it. Feel free to create a new thread if you like.
Yesterday at 12:12pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine drat! hypothesis! hypothesis! not theory!
Yesterday at 12:12pm · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Sorry for drowning you out Madjai Sabine.
Yesterday at 12:13pm · Like

Madjai Sabine too much vulgar argot makes the brain melt.
Yesterday at 12:13pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke By your very own example Zech intolerance in the west is outside mere extremist groups. Sarah Palin was candidate for vice president.
Yesterday at 12:13pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine oh no no no – there’s just three discussions taking place, one regarding the OP, one regarding the historical origins of the problems related to the OP, and a third debating the philosophical and geopolitical nature of a specific religion.

if this had been one of the pages i was an admin of, i would have separated them early on to make discourse easier for all parties involved, is all.
Yesterday at 12:14pm · Like

Olivia Guest I always laugh at laypeople freaking out over hypothesis vs theory. What you presented can be seen as either.
Yesterday at 12:15pm · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Madjai I agree with Chris on your thesis.
Yesterday at 12:15pm · Like

Olivia Guest So I can go back to thesis?
Yesterday at 12:16pm · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Always time to Hobbes.
Yesterday at 12:17pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine Daniel Hernandez – but egypt should have had an effect on the levant, which it bloody well OCCUPIED for nearly 800 years, on anatolia and the hattusans, on the arab peninsula, even on mesopotamia and the empires contemporaneous to pharaonic egypt.

all of these had both borders and trade. why did they not adopt some of the cultural values of the egyptians in regards to gender roles?
Yesterday at 12:17pm · Edited · Like · 1

Chris Armstrong Yeah, the distinction between “hypothesis” and “theory” only really matters in the context of pinickity philosophy of science and the “evolution is only a theory” objection of creationists. But we get so wound up in the latter that we forget that it really doesn’t matter.
Yesterday at 12:17pm · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine i use the separation because i lack sufficient evidence to back the whole thing up.

_I_ use hypothesis because _I_ can’t back it enough to feel confident.

it’s a ME thing.
Yesterday at 12:19pm · Like

Olivia Guest Lol but Hypothesis also has data
Yesterday at 12:20pm · Like

Madjai Sabine yes, but it’s the “what if” stage, for me, rather then the “i’m pretty sure it went down this way”

the idea is there, but i can’t use it predictively yet.
Yesterday at 12:21pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Compare Egypt to Classical Confucian China, the latter survived as cultural and political entity up to 1912. Longevity surely plays a role in the dissemination of culture.
Yesterday at 12:21pm · Like

Olivia Guest Also Chris Armstrong in cog Sci you have to grapple with model, implementation, theory
Yesterday at 12:21pm · Edited · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke It probably matters to what level Egypt was politically annexed vs militarily annexed.
Yesterday at 12:22pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine pharaonic egypt lasted from about 4500 B.C.E. to 332 B.C.E. – i’d call that a sufficiently long run that something should have rubbed off…
Yesterday at 12:22pm · Like

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine out of curiosity what group do you admin?
Yesterday at 12:23pm · Like

Madjai Sabine did. i am no longer an admin of any pages.
Yesterday at 12:24pm · Like

Hayes Hartman True, but the level of administrative control Egypt had over its territory can not be compared to China’s nearly modern bureaucracy.
Yesterday at 12:25pm · Like · 3

Olivia Guest But yeah feel free to start a new thread
Yesterday at 12:25pm · Like

Madjai Sabine Olivia Guest i have PM’d you regarding your query.
Yesterday at 12:26pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Additionally, any traditions of gender equality that existed in Ancient Egyptian culture were likely crowded out by less progressive schools of thought. e.g Aristotelian philosophy. .
Yesterday at 12:26pm · Like

Madjai Sabine Hayes Hartman – so you don’t consider economic trade, cultural exchange, or the presence of a foreign culture to affect change, purely administrative political power?

seems a bit narrow, don’t you think?
Yesterday at 12:27pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke Are we discounting Islam as a factor in why gender roles were changed? It was a more unifying force than had been seen in the peninsula up to that date and it does have a highly regressive view on women. It may be the primary reason.
Yesterday at 12:30pm · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine i think the standardization that china had through it’s invention of bureaucracy (red tape – i believe they invented it lol) had major effects, don’t get me wrong – especially in the field of currency and linguistics…

… but at the same time, i’m accustomed to the idea of culture being a tad more… viral.
Yesterday at 12:31pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke China, from the Qin Dynasty, has had one of the most cohesive cultures in the world, as evidenced by their history.
Yesterday at 12:32pm · Like

Hayes Hartman No, I consider those factors to have a major role in defining culture. Also, what Miles Dockterburke said is an excellent point to consider.
Yesterday at 12:33pm · Like

Madjai Sabine i do not discount Miles Dockterburke’s statement at all – my hypothesis attempts to explain it’s origin as well, however, and so the factor has to also explain how the culture pre-dating islam managed to avoid being altered by proximity to a more gender egalitarian presence to the west of it, before islam can be claimed as a causal factor.
Yesterday at 12:35pm · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman Maybe the nomadic/semi-nomadic lifestyles of the Peninsula’s population played a role?
Yesterday at 12:37pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Very possibly. Look at the lack of cultural conversion on the Mongols from China’s influence.
Yesterday at 12:38pm · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine … which is inside and actively fundamental to the hypothesis?
Yesterday at 12:38pm · Edited · Like

Miles Dockterburke Pre them taking over China that is.
Yesterday at 12:39pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine and carthage’s inability to culturally influence it’s neghouring african nations, like the numidians, or it’s territorial holdings in iberia.

as i said, the hypothesis has flaws.
Yesterday at 12:40pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Compare the Mongols to the Japanese, the latter adopted many Confucian practices.
Yesterday at 12:40pm · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Sedentary peoples do seem to be more prone to cultural conversion than nomadic groups.
Yesterday at 12:42pm · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke Also, how egalitarian were Egypt’s gender politics after Roman occupation?
Yesterday at 12:43pm · Like

Madjai Sabine overall, yes, though there are obvious exceptions – the parthains and roxolonoi, for example, readily and rapidly adapted to the presence of new cultures.
Yesterday at 12:43pm · Edited · Like

Madjai Sabine Miles Dockterburke – the egalitarian values of pharaonic egypt died during the hellenic period – the “ptolemaic dynasty” – leaders such as cleopatra were the except, not the rule, during egypt’s time as a successor kingdom.
Yesterday at 12:45pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Aristotle ruined everything!
Yesterday at 12:45pm · Like · 5

Miles Dockterburke Would that not explain it given the gender roles of women in the Hellenistic world?
Yesterday at 12:46pm · Like

Ian Gobert EUREKA!
Yesterday at 12:47pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke We have to go back to 300 odd BC to get pure Egyptian culture.
Yesterday at 12:47pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke I love the Aristotle hate. A meme needs to be created.
Yesterday at 12:48pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine right…. now explain how ARABIC and BEDOUIN and LEVANTINE culture survived 3,000 plus years without adopting ANY of the pharaonic egalitarianism, lol.

this is the point i keep trying to make, the theory breaks down LONG BEFORE the coming of the roman empire.
Yesterday at 12:49pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine so until i can provide a mechanism to explain it – it remains a hypothesis instead.
Yesterday at 12:49pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke The Red Sea?
Yesterday at 12:50pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke I mean i’m just throwing up ideas but seems at that point geographic isolation. Honestly you got me.
Yesterday at 12:50pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine … which explains the levant not adopting? and the bedouin people were west of egypt, and constantly sailing the sand sea with their camels and horses, so i don’t think isolation was particularly strong there.
Yesterday at 12:51pm · Like

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 12:51pm · Like · 4

Madjai Sabine it’s ok – this is the same place i am stuck with the hypothesis – trying to find the reason for the deviation in certain regions that did not occur in others.
Yesterday at 12:52pm · Like

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 12:53pm · Like · 5

Miles Dockterburke Perhaps the problem was that the cultural difference was too great so the exchange never occurred compared to the more similar cultures that did intermix.
Yesterday at 12:53pm · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I mean clearly telling men that women are equal rustles jimmies
Yesterday at 12:54pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine i mean, it’s possible to say “ok, egypt is an isolated exception.”

but then you have to explain carthage.

and then you have to explain the difference between the shao and the “mountain peoples”

and the mongols and pretty everywhere they went, or china and the mongols.

and you have to explain the zulu and aashanti.

there’s too many exceptions, so i am mssing something.
Yesterday at 12:54pm · Like

Hayes Hartman Conclusion: Cultural History is befuddling.
Yesterday at 12:56pm · Like · 4

Madjai Sabine there’s also the oddity of nile cultural transmission – where you have the nubian kingdom adopting egyptian art and architecture with no problems, but ignoring the socio-political and gender roles….

and right to the south of nubia, you get the axum civilization, which adopted the gender equality wholesale, but completely discarded anything other then pottery from egyptian culture.

it’s very very complicated and detailed.
Yesterday at 12:57pm · Edited · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Well if economics are any proof humans resist easy explanation.
Yesterday at 12:57pm · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Befuddling Cultural History and Wonky Historiography, a book by Daniel Hernandez
Yesterday at 12:57pm · Like · 2

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 12:59pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine … have i bored everyone to death now?
Yesterday at 12:59pm · Like · 1

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 12:59pm · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Nope.
Yesterday at 1:00pm · Like

Gerrit Tijhof No absolutely not, but still digesting.
Yesterday at 1:00pm · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine Ian Gobert – you are aware of the fact that aristotle actually taught the spherical earth model, right?
Yesterday at 1:00pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke Maybe Aristotle was just the first troll. He trolled so hard.
Yesterday at 1:00pm · Like

Madjai Sabine i think the title of first troll as to go to socrates.
Yesterday at 1:01pm · Like · 4

Ian Gobert
Ian Gobert’s photo.
Yesterday at 1:01pm · Like · 2

Ian Gobert Yes, I am aware of that. Just making crazy memes as someone had requested.
Yesterday at 1:02pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine heh
Yesterday at 1:02pm · Like

Ian Gobert No, just couldn’t eat from THIS tree.
Yesterday at 1:03pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine so… yeah, now you’re all basically up to date on where my hypothesis comes from, how it covers areas and ideas, and then where it runs gobsmack right into a wall.
Yesterday at 1:03pm · Like

Ian Gobert Well, that’s whats great about science… you’re able to tweak your theory/hypothesis until you get it right.
Yesterday at 1:04pm · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine all of which was related back the OPs question regarding gender roles and asiatic and oriental societies.
Yesterday at 1:04pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke I need to go play Civilization. Perhaps it has some answers
Yesterday at 1:04pm · Like · 3

Ian Gobert Art reflects life! D:
Yesterday at 1:05pm · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine seriously? my civ games tend to end with unification.
Yesterday at 1:05pm · Like

Miles Dockterburke 5 city wonder victory
Yesterday at 1:06pm · Like

Madjai Sabine i just stand lots and lots of armies on their border, and then politely whisper “peace pweez? we wuv you!” and they agree.
Yesterday at 1:06pm · Edited · Like

Ian Gobert Madjai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idmTwaerMq8
Yesterday at 1:06pm · Like · 1

Gerrit Tijhof I lose
Yesterday at 1:06pm · Like

Madjai Sabine … anyone else notice zech just kind of tapered off?
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Needs more Hobbes
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke The convo moved to your hypothesis and the other one lost steam.
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest Zech was clearly only here to tell us all what to think blah blah
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Uh… what the fuck? No. The real roots of misogyny are not in the Middle East. Most cultures are/were misogynistic and some of them did not originate from Abrahamic roots, Sherri. I thought we cleared that up.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest When you ignore them, they often fuck off
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I think he was stuck in the just post Richard Dawkins phase as Chris pointed out in his post earlier. After I got done with Dawknis and Sam Harris I was basically like that.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Lol
23 hours ago · Like

Ian Gobert So…. non-Abrahamic religions are not misogynistic?
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine Ian Gobert – irony that that comment came at the end of a long long conversation about a theory attempting to explain the roots form a more universal perspective, eh? i’ll leave to deploy what ammunition we have placed in this thread against the limited worldview just proposed by sherri.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox The notion that patriarchy originates in the middle east was also argued by Jim “Orgone” DeMeo in his doctoral thesis. I have a copy of said thesis, from back when I was a True Believer in orgone energy….
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Sherri Ingrey you’re not really making sense
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke It’s most religious peoples first step out of insanity and into rationality, however terrible of gatekeepers they may be.
23 hours ago · Like

Ian Gobert Harris and Dawkins like being paid in Dunning-Krugerrands. (Bitcoins.)
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke They are much like Taco Bell. Tastes good for a minute but you will be regretting swallowing it later.
23 hours ago · Like

Ian Gobert No, Sherri, you said “1. I agree the real roots of misogyny are in the Middle East. 2. This article is guaranteed to bring out every Islamophobe within reading distance 3. the Abrahamic religions began in the Middle East.”

If anyone was to take what you said at face value, each statement builds up on each other. Therefore 1 leads to 2 and so on.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman I got my irreligiousity from Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Hobbes.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Sherri you claim Islam is the first misogynistic religion? Have you been following the discussion?
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Ian Gobert Ooooo… is it Soviet music time, Isaac?
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest We’re trying to not be Islamophobic
23 hours ago · Edited · Like

Ian Gobert Olivia: I think you mean “Islamofacists”.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Ian Gobert Isaac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xb0Q82D2F8
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman I was absurdly religious, but in a mainline Protestant sense, until my senior year of high school.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Yeah same for me until I left my family for the navy.
23 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIPD8qHhtVU
23 hours ago · Like

Ian Gobert I guess I’m weird since I’ve always been an atheist.
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine … wait, what’s wrong with dawkins? i like his books. mostly for the biology stuff, but i do enjoy his writings….

am i missing something?
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke My family was just highly religious and it was hard to escape it while drinking the kool-aid.
23 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke His social stances Madjai.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Wow
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Roger M. Wilcox Madjai Sabine : Ever since Elevatorgate, Dawkins has had a somewhat divisive influence on the atheist and skeptical communities.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Dawkins fan boys disappointing
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine oh. *shrug* i can like some things a person believes while disagreeing with others. i believe i am allowed to do so.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke He has a real privilege blind-spot and a serious overreaction to Islam.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox No, you’re not! Shame on you for believing such a thing! Report to the gulag at once!
23 hours ago · Edited · Like

Olivia Guest I was baptised orthodox
23 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku I like Dawkins for a lot of things
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku I dislike his racism and sexism
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Ian Gobert Olivia: Send in the doge!
Ian Gobert’s photo.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest New atheism is something rw is very cold on
23 hours ago · Like

Roger M. Wilcox Dawkins’ overreaction to Islam pales in comparison to Sam Harris’s, though.
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Olivia Guest Harris *shudder*
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke And Christopher Hitchens turned out to be a giant tool.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine … ok, so i take it this group is more in favour of atheism+?
23 hours ago · Like

Roger M. Wilcox If Christopher Hitchens was so great, why is he dead!
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Roger M. Wilcox Actually, I’m not a big fan of P.Z. Meyers either.
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine and we really should refocus for a moment on sherri’s comments?
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest I love pz
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest Hobbes++
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku I don’t overall think Hitchens is that much of a tool or a neocon warmonger but I do think he’s kinda an asshole for his stupid books
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest refocus
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest Never
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine … PZ is again, a person whom i enjoy for some of his writings, while disagreeing with some of his views.
23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke He was a big supporter of Iraq and the chimp in office that took us to war…
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Olivia Guest Oldrin Bataku he’s pretty racist about my country
23 hours ago · Like · 5

Olivia Guest You won’t fit in here if you’re not a feminist
23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku He was not a supporter of Bush; that’s a common misconception about his support of Iraq intervention
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I can find the quotes if you like Oldrin.
23 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku He supported Bush in so far as he thought he did good for intervening
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine … ok, i will keep that in mind when dealing with some threads, olivia.
23 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke Yes that mainly.
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest
Olivia Guest’s photo.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Also terror memes
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine but i have probably had different experiences regarding feminism then most present, so i am somewhat leery of the term.
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine terror memes?
23 hours ago · Like

Corlene Rose To balance out the genetic theory reading, just make sure to read equal volumes between Dawkins & Wilson. (Ok, make that more Wilson, IMHO). They have been going at one another for a few years…
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Madjai Sabine you need to keep it in mind on every thread http://sphericalbullshit.wordpress.com/…/rationalwiki…/

RationalWiki on its “issues”
sphericalbullshit.wordpress.com
I’m putting this miniature rant in extended blogified form here because it’s one…See More
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Zac Goldberg ^ stand down Olivia
23 hours ago · Like

Zac Goldberg Madjai ain’t hurtin’ nobody…no reason to lay into them
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest I knew I was sensing femilisk raw instincts coming on
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine ? i am very confused right now.
23 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest Oh oh man told me to stand down lol
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Read that article
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine reading….
23 hours ago · Like

Zac Goldberg Woman down?
23 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman Person down
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Zac Goldberg Or perhaps fema-don’t-don’t-hurt-them?
23 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke Feminism gets lots of play here because it needs to. There is a big disparity in the rationalist community concerning women so the topic draws much excitement.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Olivia Guest Cool story Bro
23 hours ago · Like

Zac Goldberg Thank you Jake
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Zac I’m not sure how posting a relevant article is hurting?
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine ok, i see nothing in the link you posted Olivia, that i would find problematic.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Who’s jake?
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Its my middle name, I went by Jake before college.
23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox So not Jake of “and the Fatman” fame, then?
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Zac Goldberg Oh, they just said they were leery of Feminism. I was just sure you were going to set them straight. It was a joke connected to American pop culture. Please carry on all
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku I’m not agreeing with Hitchens but it’s somewhat disingenuous to paint him a conservative supporter of the Bush administration… besides Trotskyists have always been interventionists
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku also what the hell is a ‘rationalist’? Not sure if I want to identify with something that sounds so neckbeard
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine … i said i was leery of the TERM, not necessarily the goals and aims of the people adhering in general.

my experiences with the TERM have tended to be with a vocal and aggressive minority, whom i have learned clearly do not represent the whole.
23 hours ago · Edited · Like

Miles Dockterburke In as much as he supported the war Oldrin.
23 hours ago · Like

Roger M. Wilcox Just remember, you can’t spell Feminism without FEMA!

(Oh, wait, actually you can…)
23 hours ago · Like · 5

Hayes Hartman Communists and Neoconservatives have quite a bit of overlap in terms of membership, they float between the ideologies regularly.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku I know what you’re talking about, the supposed historical link between neoconservatives and Trotskyists in crisis, in which several of the latter became the former, but I would not say they have ‘quite a bit’ of overlap and sure as hell haven’t found evidence that this happens ‘regularly’
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku As an addendum Rothbard was a big supporter of the idea that neocons were communists in disguise lol
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox Isaac J. Dorko : Stockholm syndrome?
23 hours ago · Like

Zac Goldberg For sure. wouldn’t you say that’s the case with most social movements? They are usually separated into factions within the movement. Maybe we should look to clarify the movements name rather than tossing it out?
23 hours ago · Like

Ultron Ganondorf Well if Rothbard said it its probably wrong, and insane and immoral to boot
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Zac Goldberg We got Ultron all up in here!
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine … i get the feeling the derailment into political theory was intentional.

good move, whomever thought of it.
23 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman All roads lead to Hobbes.
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Oldrin Bataku Not trying to attack the idea by associating it with Rothbard I just thought it was an interesting related tidbit
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine i was never a big fan of hobbes, personally.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Zac Goldberg You can’t spell politichobbes without Hobbes
23 hours ago · Like · 5

Oldrin Bataku There are links between neoconservatism and other disillusioned non-Trotskyist leftists as well of course
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine i was always more partial to bakunin and proudhoun, frankly. with a bit of aristophanes and plato.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest We always derail this is derailwiki
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine hobbes seemed too… self-limiting, imho.
23 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke I was always more of a Calvin fan myself…
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest If you want articles or less hobbesian discussion go to wiki and saloon bar
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Hayes Hartman Self-limiting, how so?
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Zac Goldberg Now Hayes Madjai ain’t hurtin’ nobody
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine he made certain assumptions about natural behaviour that didn’t give room to manoeuvre.
23 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman
Hayes Hartman’s photo.
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Olivia Guest
Olivia Guest’s photo.
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Miles Dockterburke I wish that comic was more legible.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest We watch you
23 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman While the state of nature is now treated as a purely theoretical construct, the general sentiment Hobbes expressed in regards to human nature remains valid. The level of violence that exists in pre-state societies supports Hobbes’s less than positive view of humanity.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Hayes Hartman Our propensity for group vs. group violence is considerable.
23 hours ago · Like · 4

Miles Dockterburke Homo homini lupus
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke Don’t underestimate our capacity for individual violence
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke We just rock at being shits to each other.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine see, i think that by making the assumption as an a priori requirement, he limits the possibility of outliers having functional alternatives.

also he thought aristophanes was an idiot, and that annoys me.
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I prefer the Bonobo style of group dynamic to that of the chimp
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Oldrin Bataku i think any ‘state of nature’ presupposing the absence of society and politics is theoretically unsound
23 hours ago · Like · 5

Olivia Guest I prefer the misandry style of group dynamic
Olivia Guest’s photo.
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke The praying mantis dynamic lol
23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2

Hayes Hartman It is an interesting thought experiment, one that can be applied to human existence once you substitute groups for individuals.
23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 4

Hayes Hartman The international arena is essentially a state of nature.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Madjai Sabine and to think the only reason i originally replied to this thread, was to ensure that ethnic diversity was recognized in egypt and tunisia, lol.
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Damn Isaac is gulag happy
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine this has been quite the ride.
23 hours ago · Like · 7

Zac Goldberg The “state of nature” is usually just used as a tool for these types of political philosophers to understand how their societies got to where they are. I can see how that’d be a logical starting place in their minds
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Oldrin Bataku http://en.wikipedia.org/…/Anarchy_(international…
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke International politics are enforced the same way domestic politics are, with the threat of force.
23 hours ago · Like

Zac Goldberg Oh Tunisia
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku political legitimacy has everything to do with the acceptance of force
23 hours ago · Like · 3

Zac Goldberg ^^^
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine but they can also be dangerous, if the “state of nature” is not properly relieved of potential initial preconditions.

think back to the early 1800s and late 1700s, when anarch and socialist thought was beginning to evolve – one of the thing they did was start with a natural behavioural expectation of class conflict.

… then they went on to try and redescribe every single civiilization and culture in history as an example of different attempts to manage class conflict. when the peoples of those civilizations and cultures themselves didn’t consider “class” to be relevant, it causes a loss of vision of the people’s own rationale for action.
23 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku “Anarchy is what states make of it”
23 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_of_Historicism Madjai Sabine
23 hours ago · Like · 1

Zac Goldberg Sure Madjai! There are fair and unfair ways of utilizing political thought tools.
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine you can’t really explain athenian philosophical theory, or spartan laconism, or ionian turranos, using the theories presented with the precondition of class conflict.
23 hours ago · Like

Madjai Sabine yes Oldrin Bataku! that’s is pretty much what i am saying lol.
23 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke Especially given the increase in the speed of change in the world.
23 hours ago · Like

Sam Butler Popper’s criticism of historicism was problematic, but i don’t have time to get into it atm
22 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku while i do question the dogma of Marx’s conception of class antagonism as the ‘driver’ of history (in a dialectical sense) and the painful attempts at trying to retrodict and subsume all of history in this paradigm i don’t think it’s been entirely bankrupt… Marxist historiography is interesting imo
22 hours ago · Like · 4

Oldrin Bataku Popper’s critique has a grain of truth but it’s definitely not without its own slew of flaws either (as Sam Butler states)
22 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Class conflict seems so ubiquitous in all but the smallest of organizational structures as to be a tautology.
22 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku Marx’s historicism is at least on relatively sound footing which is a lot more than can be said about Hegel’s teleological bs
22 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Isn’t Hegel kinda low hanging fruit?
22 hours ago · Like · 3

Madjai Sabine just so y’all know, i’m taking off for a while now, got some stuff to do and time to make dinner.
22 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke C ya Madjai
22 hours ago · Like · 1

Madjai Sabine yes, hegel is very low hanging fruit. touching the ground low, which is why i keep ignoring any reference to him.

it’d be the same with trying to discuss sexuality and mentioning freud.
22 hours ago · Like · 4

Oldrin Bataku i should make a point to mention that Marxist/Marxian historiography is a very diverse and complicated field, and not some monolithic cohesive beast… some of the guys are wild. there’s also a lot of overlap with other approaches
22 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke 500! Epic thread is now Epic
22 hours ago · Like · 1

Corlene Rose Was there any agreement on the roots and survival of misogyny, in 140 characters or less?
22 hours ago · Like

Roger M. Wilcox Isaac is back around to using Hobbes meme-graphics instead of Stalin/Gulag meme-graphics. Proof that a new week has started.
22 hours ago · Like · 7

Roger M. Wilcox Cycles. Just like the Moties.
22 hours ago · Like

Genghis Khant Wow, nearly 500 comments, so I’m not going to read through them all but the Arabs of peninsular Arabia are a different ethnic group from the Muslims of North Africa and most Egyptians differentiate themselves from Arabs, as do Iranians, Kurds and Turks. Omani’s have a lot of African influence from their maritime trading down the east coast. They all have a common religion but it’s practice varies across the region in the same way that Christianity does across Europe.
22 hours ago · Like · 6

Ultron Ganondorf You forgot about all the European Muslims, Albanians gonna be pissed!
22 hours ago · Like

Ultron Ganondorf *Sorry, the majority of Albanians gonna be pissed!
22 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku my parents are Catholic Albanians
22 hours ago · Like · 3

Oldrin Bataku don’t forget Bosniak
22 hours ago · Like · 4

Hayes Hartman Or Macedonians.
22 hours ago · Like · 2

Oldrin Bataku I always figured Macedonian Muslims were more-or-less a subgroup of the Bulgarian-derived Pomaks
22 hours ago · Like · 3

Genghis Khant It was merely a FB post not a dissertation.
21 hours ago · Like · 2

Philipp Bernitt Madjai Sabine I like your structured, eloquent posts. You seem to be level-headed and above provocation as well, which is, frankly, admirable (there are posts which make me practically choke with anger, for contrast).
Or, to put it in the language of our times:
http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9ihzNo8s1qb6e5oo1_500…
21 hours ago · Like · 6

Ultron Ganondorf Totally forgot about the Muslim Macedonians!
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Ultron Ganondorf But in fairness there are more Muslims in the UK than Macedonia and I didn’t mention them either
21 hours ago · Like

Hayes Hartman Oldrin Bataku, have you read much Hobsbawm?
21 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku yeah of course
21 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku you can’t study the birth of European nation states without Hobsbawm
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku Invented tradition
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman My only major issue with him is his borderline Stalin apologetics.
21 hours ago · Like · 3

Oldrin Bataku oh yeah Age of Extremes gives a terrible account of the Soviet Union
21 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku i think it only mentions the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact like once when it states the Nazis initiated aggression
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Hayes Hartman Those dirty NEP-Men had to be stopped somehow.
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Oldrin Bataku LOL
21 hours ago · Like

Oldrin Bataku it’s not a coincidence kulak and gulag only differ by one letter substitution
21 hours ago · Like · 3

Ultron Ganondorf *Mindblown*
21 hours ago · Like

ABel AShes The Bible and the Koran are quite explicit in their misogyny. I admire Mona but this article is dishonest. Islam is the primary reason misogyny is so out of control in the so-called “Islamic world”.
16 hours ago · Like · 2

Roger M. Wilcox I’m just disappointed no one got my “Moties” reference.
15 hours ago · Like

Sam Butler ABel, you seem confused. Are you under the impression that misogyny was somehow initiated by the founding of Islam? It’s like you guys are crypto-religious – you still seem to think, like most religious people, that a religion is something which guides and reigns over a culture from ‘above’, rather than something which is just a reflection of a culture. That’s not the case. Patriarchy was prevalent in Abrahamic societies prior to the founding of the major religions, and those religions simply reflected the common cultural norms and mores of the time.
14 hours ago · Like

Sam Butler No, it’s not the source of its existence. Banning religion would not eliminate misogyny. That is a ridiculously facile position to take.
14 hours ago · Edited · Like · 2

Sam Butler You said that religion is the source of misogyny, wouldn’t it follow that banning ‘the source’ would cut off misogyny?
14 hours ago · Like · 1

Sam Butler Btw you mentioned FGM, what does that have to do with Islam? FGM is pre-Islamic, and it isn’t mentioned at all in either the Bible or the Quran
14 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Sam Butler Right, your point? Obviously, certain pre-Islamic mores and traditions would be continued in the new religious context. It has nothing to do with the religion.
14 hours ago · Like

Bert B Mad Muslamic ray guns
14 hours ago · Like

Bert B Mad Rabies is common among islamophobic berts
13 hours ago · Like · 3

Bert B Mad
Bert B Mad’s photo.
13 hours ago · Like

Bert B Mad
Bert B Mad’s photo.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Arthur Tolp Go back to bed, Zech.
13 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke You know I don’t agree with Zech buy why are people defending Sharia and making memes about it as a tinfoil hat comparison. The wiki has a well written page on it, and it is not to fond of the topic.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp Nobody is apologizing for Islam, simply using facts to counter your copy paste arguments from the AmazingAtheist. Go back to sleep.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp Nobody here believes that Sharia is a good thing. Try again.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Arthur Tolp “militant feminism: a word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons”
13 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I asked about the meme.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp You said it yourself.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp If you keep using straw men of positions that you clearly know nothing about, you just might be a moron.
13 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke I wish this would go back to a refutation of his straw men so that he might learn something, instead of a meme war.
13 hours ago · Edited · Like

Arthur Tolp You believe that because we believe that Islamaphobia is a real thing, that means we are “apologizing” for Islam.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Zech I think you are wrong on your analysis of most of this but I also wish these most likely more educated people would address and dismantle your arguments, or direct you to place where you could get the perspective you need.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp More straw men. We believe that there are many criticisms of Islam, but the ones you bring up are shit.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke I did earlier.
13 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke But you need some more.
13 hours ago · Like

Arthur Tolp We would do the same against someone who made shitty arguments attacking Christianity.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke You are culturally biased. That is the main criticism. The second is your conflation of a massive set of humanity and the diverse religion it follows as a monolith.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Arthur Tolp You really love misusing the word “militant”, don’t you?
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke It really seems like you are copy pasting based on the quickness with which you drop in large paragraphs. That or you are one fast fucking typer.
13 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke Just take global warming like I said earlier. That is a crime perpetrated by the west, and it is far worse than any you have cited as an example of the evil of Islam.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Arthur Tolp The same advantages that any religion has: being the foundation of communities, creating culture, and helping give peace to those who have difficult lives.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Nobody I hope would defend the actual tenants of the religion, but you are making it out as if they follow them to some degree that they don’t. Most Muslims, like most Christians, are casually hypocritical about their faith.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Also, as religion is correlated with poverty and lack of education you fail to analyze the role the west has played and continues to play in keeping many parts of the world in destitution.
13 hours ago · Like

Miles Dockterburke And as I pointed out, and you used as an example, we have candidates running for vice president that would shame most extreme Muslim sects with the level of their vitriol and ignorance.
13 hours ago · Like · 3

Miles Dockterburke So what I think we are asking is that you take a more nuanced and even handed look at how culture, population, and religion differ. If you do that and really actually listen to the counter arguments you will find that these people are no friend of the actual creed of Islam, but rather defenders of it’s people.
13 hours ago · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke I’m going to log off for a while and watch GoT. When I get back I will try and find some videos or some blogs where this position can be stated in great detail and with clarity, as I know FB is not the best means of communication.
13 hours ago · Like · 2

Zac Goldberg Global warming is incidental, not intentional.
13 hours ago · Like

Olivia Guest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

Islamophobia – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Islamophobia is prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of Muslims or of ethn…See More
12 hours ago · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Zech Lakatos if you want to stay on here, you’re going to have to read a bit on your own.
12 hours ago · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke Chris Hedges on the topic.

http://www.truthdig.com/…/murdering_the_wretched_of_the…

Noam Chomsky

http://theamericanmuslim.org/…/interview-with-noam…

I don’t want to flood this so read those and what Olivia posted.
12 hours ago · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Because we have islamophobia denial every few days. And surprisingly, we have a wiki where we store our views. So read something. Our wiki has a series on it just like Wikipedia does
12 hours ago · Like · 1

Philipp Bernitt He seems like another hit on the reoccurring combo-sheet:
– “Feminazi” etc
– “liberal” as an insult
– islamophobic

Why is it that there’s always this trifecta of derp?
11 hrs · Like · 2

Olivia Guest Oh, did I get femibot status here and missed it?
9 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest Oh boo hoo scary woman is scary.
9 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest Cri time
Olivia Guest’s photo.
9 hrs · Unlike · 1

Philipp Bernitt yeah
“Zech Lakatos Be careful Abel the feminazi will mute you”
5h ago, before the meme flood
9 hrs · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Zech Lakatos is still in this group? Ha ha ha
8 hrs · Edited · Like

Olivia Guest I can’t think of a reason to keep man babies around
Olivia Guest’s photo.
8 hrs · Like

ABel AShes This page reminds of people that wouldn’t know that this paper was a joke. http://www.physics.nyu.edu/…/transgress_v2_singlefile.html

Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity
http://www.physics.nyu.edu
Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity
8 hrs · Like · Remove Preview

ABel AShes With thanks to my friends Yama Rasaw and Nemat Sadat for compiling this list. It is not possible to be a feminist and defend Islam, or Judaism, or Christianity, or Hinduism. Here are some lovely examples of women’s “rights” in Islam. Don’t be lazy now. Look up the verses.

Women have the right to get a beating from their husbands if they disobey their husbands. Quran 4:34

-Women have the right to know that they are deficient in intelligence. Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:

-A Woman has the right to get raped by Muslim soldiers if she belongs to a non-Mulsim tribe/family and is captured during war. Quran 4:24 and Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371:

-A Woman has the right to know that her testimony is worth half of a testimony of man in the court of the law. Quran 2:282

-If a Woman is raped, she has the right to provide four witnesses to prove her claim. Quran 24:4

-Women have to right to be ready for their husbands whenever the husband approaches her for sex. Quran 2:223

-Women have the right to know that the majority of dwellers in Hell are women for being ungrateful to their husbands. Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 124

-Women have the right to be one of four wives to their husbands. Quran 4:3

-Women have the right to know that their husbands can divorce them at any given moment by simply repeating “I divorce you” three times. The same rule does not apply to men. Sahih Muslim: Book 009, Number 3493:

-Women have the right to know that they are inferior to men. Quran 2:228
8 hrs · Edited · Like

Cybele Pauli Is this still going? Please tell me youve moved past “but Christians” versus “MUSLIM ALPACALOPSE”
8 hrs · Like · 2

ABel AShes Again. the people on this page sound like drunk children who cannot read.
8 hrs · Like

ABel AShes It is not possible to be a feminist and defend Islam, or Judaism, or Christianity, or Hinduism.
8 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest ABel AShes in all honestly fuck off.
8 hrs · Like · 1

ABel AShes Sorry to make you think.
8 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli ABel you can be a 3rd Wave “I respect your choice” feminist and defend patriarchal religions. Thats basically what they do
8 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Why did you not list any examples from the other religions? Just Islam. We are defending Muslims from prejudice, Not the religion itself.
8 hrs · Like · 3

Olivia Guest If you cannot tell the difference between being against Islamophobia and being pro-Islam, you should probably do some reading.
8 hrs · Like · 5

Olivia Guest It’s funny, we kind of have a wiki too!
8 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest Weird, eh?
8 hrs · Like

Oldrin Bataku what do we all think of Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s critique of Islam?
8 hrs · Like · 2

Olivia Guest OK, I feel this thread is nicely attracting Islamophobes. What to do with them though?
8 hrs · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Those eyes make me crack up.
8 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli We worship Ayaan forever, amen.
8 hrs · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli I love it when someone lies moderately. It’s relieving.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Hey guise
8 hrs · Like

ABel AShes Wait, be rational and realize that “Islam” and “Muslims” are two different things. “Islam” is a religion dictated by the Qu’ran and Hadiths. The Qu’ran and Hadiths are anti-feminist as is the Bible. Christians and Muslims are free to live life as they choose, but those books are not on the side of gender equality and only a person who has not read them or is lying could say otherwise.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Hay hay hay frends
Cybele Pauli’s photo.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke Well yes…
8 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Nobody ever claimed that the Koran or the Bible were pro gender equality.
8 hrs · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli Im brown
8 hrs · Like

ABel AShes Since you are all so fond of these stupid little meme graphics and are allergic to criticism of Islam, here is one with some actually content instead of an unfunny “joke” for snarky internet dorks. There is nothing from the Qu’ran or Hadiths here so you can keep up you delusions. This will guide you to hate in The Bible and since Islam is based upon Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and pre-Islamic Arabic customs…well…you figure it out…I am very glad that liberal and moderate religious Jews, Christians, and Muslims exist but they are following the scriptures incorrectly in many respects and it is dishonest to claim otherwise.
ABel AShes’s photo.
7 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke For the record I kinda think the meme thing is a bit overboard.
7 hrs · Unlike · 1

Miles Dockterburke Funny, but it breaks conversations down like nothing else, guess that may be the point.
7 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli Im not allergic… but I dont want ban
7 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Dude are you listening to what we are saying. WE KNOW religion is basically anti gender equality in virtually all its incarnations. Nobody is arguing with you about it.
7 hrs · Like · 4

Olivia Guest All I hear is dudebro tears
7 hrs · Like · 2

ABel AShes I have a great many friends who are Muslims as well as ex-Muslims. I have read the Qu’ran and many of the Hadiths. The Old Testament is even worse than the Qu’ran and the New Testament has some deranged things in it as well. “Radical Islam” and “Fundamentalist Christianity” and “Orthodox Judaism” are based on literal readings of the scripture and the scripture is the basis of the belief systems.
7 hrs · Edited · Like

Cybele Pauli Isaac used muh meme *cri*
7 hrs · Like · 1

Olivia Guest *barf*
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest RATWIKI IS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR ISLAMOPHOBIA
7 hrs · Like · 1

Olivia Guest YOU WILL GET CUT HOMES
7 hrs · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke I completely lost what your point was bro. Do you have one at this point? You came in here saying we sound like a bunch of drunk children (I don’t sound like a child) #Drink, and made some silly statements. Lay out how you disagree with us or lurk.
7 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli #NotAllMuslims
7 hrs · Like

Rob Momper Is this the thread that is trying for the elusive 1000 posts?

Cause, like, I’m going to be deleting it in about ten minutes.

So, like, hurry.
7 hrs · Like · 3

Olivia Guest
Olivia Guest’s photo.
7 hrs · Like · 3

Olivia Guest I love you Rob
7 hrs · Like · 1

Olivia Guest Hey!! My voice is like a child’s!
7 hrs · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli Yaaaaay
7 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli let me just add one thing “But Christians…”
7 hrs · Like · 1

Rob Momper This deletion was scheduled three years ago and is a regular part of our maintenance here at RWFB.
7 hrs · Like · 3

Rob Momper Enjoy your time on this thread, which will be deleted in eight minutes.
7 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Damn like 750. That’s intense.
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest OMG ROB IS LIEK DA ADMIN ADMIN
7 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Most posts on a thread ever?
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest only 200 more to go
7 hrs · Like · 1

Olivia Guest i’m sat here giggling and eating at work
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest
Olivia Guest’s photo.
7 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli We don’t think about this as an issue of American men, white men, or Christian men innately and irreducibly hating women…. surely thats a joke
7 hrs · Like · 2

ABel AShes https://abelashes.wordpress.com/…/the-intellectual-and…/

The intellectual and moral cowardice (and adolescence) of “RationalWiki”, part 1…
abelashes.wordpress.com
Criticize Islam using the Qu’ran and Hadiths and the Bible (which is also part o…See More
7 hrs · Like · 2 · Remove Preview

ABel AShes The last meme says it all. There is a total lack of sincerity and honesty on this page.
7 hrs · Unlike · 1

Miles Dockterburke Free promotion?
7 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli Thank Allah I can start drinking now
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest shall i do the honours?
7 hrs · Like · 2

Cybele Pauli But Christians
7 hrs · Like

John Lawman This thread is like total HYDRA – “Cut one head off and two will grow in its place”.
7 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke still not to 1000…
7 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest John I’d argue the islamophobes are more like Hydras. We’re more like Hyderabad. *rimshot*
7 hrs · Like · 2

Olivia Guest *hides*
7 hrs · Like · 1

Alexander Nielsen I would rather argue that some people go batshit insane whenever criticism of Islam comes up. People should be free to criticize it as much as they criticize Christianity and Scientology and other religions and ideologies. Furthermore as an atheist I a…See More
7 hrs · Unlike · 1

Olivia Guest SHOW ME ON THE WIKI ARTICLE WHERE THE EVIL BROWN HUMANS TOUCHED YOU

“Islamophobia is the irrational fear or hatred of Islam or Muslims. It is usually, though not always, connected with xenophobia in general. The term is also sometimes used as a snarl …See More

Islamophobia – RationalWiki
rationalwiki.org
Islamophobia is the irrational fear or hatred of Islam or Muslims. It is usually…See More
7 hrs · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli The people who suffer the consequences for apostasy are not as important as figuring out the exact DNA makeup of ethnic Arabs and the radness of the Ottoman Empire.
7 hrs · Unlike · 2

Olivia Guest sis i bet he got a touch of the ole http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fatwa_envy

Fatwa envy – RationalWiki
rationalwiki.org
Fatwa envy is the term used for the phenomenon of people complaining that critic…See More
6 hrs · Like · 2

Alexander Nielsen “[Islamophobia] … is also sometimes used as a snarl word to dismiss valid criticisms of Islamic doctrines and ideology.”
Sadly true.
6 hrs · Unlike · 3

Cybele Pauli But Christians
6 hrs · Unlike · 1

Alexander Nielsen You want criticism of Christians? Look towards Nigeria. Plenty of fuel there
6 hrs · Unlike · 1

Cybele Pauli Sorry… the correct rebuttal is But US Christians
6 hrs · Unlike · 2

Alexander Nielsen Ah, of course. I am not an US citizen so can’t really say I am an expert. But please, do tell
6 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke I wish I would have found this for those guys earlier.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/…/04/03/both-wrong-both-right/
6 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli There’s nothing to tell really. The answer to any criticism of any Islamic anything, anywhere at any time is “But US Christians.”
6 hrs · Unlike · 3

Olivia Guest LOL
6 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest I’m still laughing for the come-back
6 hrs · Like

Olivia Guest HOMES YOU GONNA GET CUT
6 hrs · Like · 1

Miles Dockterburke So much snark
6 hrs · Like

Sam Butler So what’s your valid criticism of Islam, Alex? Is it that some followers do bad things? Or do you think Islam *causes* them to do bad things? The former claim is correct but uninteresting, the latter requires you to actually understand the religion (I doubt you do); otherwise, you’re not any better than someone who thinks vaccines cause autism because there’s a correlation between the prevalence of the two.
6 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke Damn you came in swinging lol.
6 hrs · Like

Alexander Nielsen Meh, not worth my time.
6 hrs · Like · 2

Miles Dockterburke On the vaccine front, didn’t it turn out that there is not even a correlation when the studies were run?
6 hrs · Like

Miles Dockterburke I think they did a massive one in Denmark that disproved even that.
6 hrs · Like

Cybele Pauli
Cybele Pauli’s photo.
6 hrs · Like · 2

Bert B Mad Nearly 1k
4 hrs · Like · 1

Bert B Mad damn
4 hrs · Like

ABel AShes “SHOW ME ON THE WIKI ARTICLE WHERE THE EVIL BROWN HUMANS TOUCHED YOU”….Seriously? The main reason to criticize Islam is out of solidarity with non-Muslims oppressed by Islamic governments, families, customs, and culture in “Islamic countries”. My fiancee is a Tunisian atheist. Even though Tunisia is famous for having “the best women’s rights” situation of all “Muslim countries” it is impossible for my atheist fiancee to marry anyone but a Muslim in Tunisia according to Tunisian law. If she were a man she could marry anyone she wants regardless of religious affiliation. Anyone of any ethnicity can be a Muslim. Arabs are not very “brown” people anyway and are actually considered to be “white” on US census and affirmative action forms. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/204/ If I criticize Islam I am “Islamophobic” but if I convert to Islam and then criticize Islam I am challenging the final prophet of god who I as a Muslim am supposed to emulate in every way and whose every word and action as recorded in the Qu’ran if not the Hadith I am supposed to believe to be divinely inspired. If I disagree with Mohammed I am breaking the vow I made upon becoming a Muslim. Only the interpretation of the recorded words of Mohammed decide what is and isn’t Islam and many of those words are quite explicit in their sexism and their demand to codify such sexism into law.

How to Convert to Islam and Become a Muslim
http://www.islamreligion.com
The steps a person needs to take to accept Islam as his/her religion, enter its …See More

ABel AShes 4:34
Sahih International
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
11 mins · Like

ABel AShes 2:282
Sahih International
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses – so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.
9 mins · Like

ABel AShes 4:24
Sahih International
And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
8 mins · Like

ABel AShes Sahih Bukhari , Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) or ‘Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”
4 mins · Like

ABel AShes Oh…nevermind…this can be explained away: As for the other part, a full translation of it goes as follows: “‚I have seen hell and I have never seen any thing more horrific than what I saw then. I also saw that the majority of its dwellers are women. ‚ They asked: “On what grounds, Messenger of God? He said: “By their denial.‚ They said: “Their denial of God?‚ He answered: “No. Their denial of their spouses and their denial of kindness. You may be kind to one of them all the time, but when she finds fault with you she says: I have never received any kindness from you. ‚”

To start with, the Hadith does not say that most women are in hell. It says that the majority of hell dwellers are women, which simply signifies that more women fail in this worldly test than men. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, points out their failure, which is not based on denying God. Rather, it is denying kindness, particularly in marital situations. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed this out in more than one Hadith, warning women against grumbling and frequent complaints. He is also warning them here against denying kindness by their husbands, highlighting a failing that is often expressed in denying past kindness.
The Hadith shows that women can easily avoid such a destiny by being fair and appreciative of kindness. They should always be grateful to God for what He has given them and also be appreciative of any kindness done to them by others, particularly those with whom they live, be they their husbands, parents or other relatives.
3 mins · Like

ABel AShes No not misogynistic at all…and since Mohammed commanded that Muslims should never separate religion and state any “Muslim” who does not want this to be law is not a “true Muslim”. Mohammed invented the religion of Islam so it is his baby. It is dishonest to reinterpret it as something that is not hateful to women. It is. That said: “1. Do not lie to yourself.russell_commandments

2. Do not lie to other people unless they are exercising tyranny.
20 secs · Like
ABel AShes

ABel AShes There is a new law coming into being in “liberated” Islamist ruled Iraq to legalize the practice of marrying girls as young as 9 years old. This is justified by the Hadiths and the historical record of the actions of Mohammed in marrying Aisha at the age of 6 and consummating the marriage (raping her) at the age of 9. While some scholars debate whether she was 6, 7, 8, 9, 10; this is the justification used for allowing such sexual crimes against children.

What do many defenders of Islam do when issues such as this are brought up? They act like Catholics and rush to defend the reputation of Islam first and the safety, freedom, and innocence of little girls second (if at all). It is strange to worry more about protecting Islam and other religions from criticism than to worry about protecting little girls from a life of rape and servitude. It’s like the Catholics who feel sorry for the Vatican having to spend money to defend against lawsuits by boys who were raped by priests instead of feeling sorry for the boys who were raped by priests.
6 mins · Like

Hayes Hartman Yeah, Islam has some shitty elements to it.
Hayes Hartman’s photo.
1 min · Like · 1

ABel AShes I admire Mona Eltahawy, Irshad Manji, Tarek Fatah, Emad Salem and other countless heroic individuals who has fought against Islamist tyranny while holding on to their Islamic faith, but if you actually bother to read the Qu’ran and Hadith you will find that it is clear that based upon what they stand for and based upon the writings of and records of the actions of Mohammed, that Mohammed himself would not have considered them to be Muslims.

Alexander Nielsen I don’t really care what rules Muslims have for other Muslims. It is their religion. They can make up funny rules to walk only on the left leg for all I care. However, I do not, and will never, accept their persecution of atheists. If anyone wishes to leave their religion, they should be free to do so, without threat of death.
12 mins · Unlike · 2

Cybele Pauli But US Christians…
10 mins · Unlike · 2

ABel AShes Even if your family is not religious, in most “Muslim countries” you are automatically a “Muslim” at birth. Not only do you not get to choose, your parents don’t even get to choose.
5 mins · Like

ABel AShes One of the biggest political movements in Lebanon right now is the movement for the right to have secular marriage, a right that Turks enjoy but most “Muslim countries” do not allow. This is important as countries with only religious civil and family courts either severely restrict the individual’s right to marry outside of the religion they are assigned at birth or ban it outright.
1 min · Like

Alexander Nielsen I don’t really care what rules Muslims have for other Muslims. It is their religion. They can make up funny rules to walk only on the left leg for all I care. However, I do not, and will never, accept their persecution of atheists. If anyone wishes to leave their religion, they should be free to do so, without threat of death.
1 hr · Unlike · 3

Cybele Pauli But US Christians…
1 hr · Unlike · 2

Ultron Ganondorf Really? He broke out the old An-Nisa, 34 type thing and nobody got out the Leviticus 18.22 or the 20.13 for balance and comparison?
57 mins · Like

Ultron Ganondorf They’re all full of shit basically.
56 mins · Like

ABel AShes Even if your family is not religious, in most “Muslim countries” you are automatically a “Muslim” at birth. Not only do you not get to choose, your parents don’t even get to choose.
55 mins · Like · 1

Cybele Pauli We dont need “balance and comparison.” I just say “But US Christians” and all thoughts terminate on schedule.
53 mins · Like · 2

Alexander Nielsen It used to automatic in Sweden as-well. The parents could opt out of it, or something to that effect, but it was fairly automated. They changed it, as Sweden is holding on to our secular society. For now, but I do think that most Muslims who move here enjoy our secular society. So I don’t fear for Swedens future. Quite the opposite, they did bring a lot of tasty food. Culture is an exchange, and you can’t always get exactly what you like. But in a free society, you don’t have to swallow that which you don’t like.
53 mins · Unlike · 2

ABel AShes One of the biggest political movements in Lebanon right now is the movement for the right to have secular marriage, a right that Turks enjoy but most “Muslim countries” do not allow. This is important as countries with only religious civil and family courts either severely restrict the individual’s right to marry outside of the religion they are assigned at birth or ban it outright.
51 mins · Like · 2

Alexander Nielsen Even our “used to be state church” in Sweden is pretty secular. Those bans on wear mixed clothing or homosexuality or trimming your beard, they just go “fuck it, we don’t read those parts”. They have also decided to wed gays in churches. Homosexuals already had the right for a civil wedding, but now they can get married in church if they for some reason wants to get married in old stone buildings built upon the blood and tears and bones of starving peasants.
47 mins · Unlike · 2

Ian Gobert ABel AShes: Technically, everyone is “Muslim” at birth according to Islam, so…
12 mins · Unlike · 3

Ultron Ganondorf Or an atheist according to Dawkins
5 mins · Unlike · 1

ABel AShes That is true to a degree. I have had that exact point argued to me several times by Muslims, never moderate or liberal ones mind you, always very conservative Muslims.
4 mins · Like

ABel AShes I am glad their is less hostility, paranoia, and bizarre cult-like inside joke attacks on anyone who tries to discuss the merits and pitfalls of Eltahawey’s article than there was this morning. It was bizarre this morning. My take: I innocently wandered over to the Rational Wiki FB page thinking I would find like-minded people and if there were disagreements it would result in rational debate. Olivia Guest had posted an article by Mona Eltahaway in which she argues that Islam is not the source of misogyny in the Arab world. I made a comment that I thought this was dishonest. From then on I was bombarded by bizarre threats to be sent to “a gulag”. I was called a racist and Islamophobic. I was assumed to be a libertarian and anti-feminist when I am neither. I was assumed to be a hater of Arabs when I am engaged to be married to a Tunisian. Olivia wrote “YOU’RE GONNA GET CUT HOMES.” whatever that means…it was extremely bizarre and then she posted the Rational Wiki page on Islamophobia which has to be read. It is incredibly cowardly and naive. They REALLY got pissed when I quoted the Qu’ran on women’s place in Islamic society and Islamic marriage. With no hyperbole or exaggeration i can say that I have had more “rational” discussions about Islam with Pakistani Taliban supporters.
2 mins · Like

16 thoughts on “The adolescence and intellectual and moral cowardice of James B Russel, David Gerard, and Olivia Guest of the “RationalWiki” Facebook page…pseudo-”rationalist”, artificial “feminist”, and fake “liberal” apologists for oppression of the so-called “Muslim world” under Islam.”
JAMES B RUSSEL says:
June 2, 2014 at 9:37 pm Edit
Bro, calm down, you’re full on rustled

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:00 am Edit
I didn’t remember your name after I blocked you. I knew who Olivia was. I had never heard of you before. I will add your name to the headline so you won’t feel left out.

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:51 am Edit
This guy is a broken record. One meaningless, unfunny joke ad infinitum does not make a very good argument or impression…on anyone. You’re just making yourself look like a clown.

Reply
DAVIDGERARD says:
June 2, 2014 at 9:50 pm Edit
Dude. I kicked your whiny arse off, I should get at least a mention.

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:12 am Edit
I presented facts. All of whine came from you and your bizarrely self-important friends.

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:54 am Edit
I didn’t remember your name after I blocked you. I knew who Olivia was. I had never heard of you before. I will add your name to the headline so you won’t feel left out.

Reply
DAVIDGERARD says:
June 2, 2014 at 9:50 pm Edit
I mean, you can do something other than whine about the girls being mean to you.

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:45 am Edit
…again, I never heard of any of you GUYS. I only knew who Olivia was. I think she is the only “celebrity” of the bunch. The rest of you are nobodies like me. I blocked everyone who posted those asinine “rustling jimmies” gorilla and “go to the gulag” Stalin pics and then I couldn’t remember any of your names. I know you are a legend in your own mind but I blocked you as soon as your responded to me because there was nothing adult about your words at all. I have more mature nieces and nephews who are still in elementary school.

Reply
LADYHAL9K says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:01 pm Edit
“Do I sense terror over criticizing Islam or something?”

I’m always right.

Reply
WITTGENSTEIN says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:28 pm Edit
D:

Reply
ANASTASIA TUGGLE says:
June 2, 2014 at 10:39 pm Edit
I stayed quiet during this debate, but was completely on your side. I thought the way admins handled the whole thing was childish. It was not the first time this week (and not even the first time that day) that Olivia Guest was throwing around her admin status/ being a general bully. I personally thought you presented a decent idea/argument and were attacked. My personal view (that I was too afraid to voice) is that all religion is harmful, I don’t know why it is in vogue to accept harmful ideologies if they fall within the “multicultural umbrella.” After loving the rational wiki site itself, I have been fairly disappointed with the admins and frequent contributors when they venture into Facebook. It all seems to be a childish game of inside jokes, memes, and quips.

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:35 am Edit
Thanks. I didn’t post this because they offended me. They scarcely exist to me. I joined their group on FB simply because I join EVERY “rational”, skeptic, atheist, humanist type group on FB. I responded to a story that popped up in my news feed. I take this issue very seriously. I just recently wrote a letter to help a non-religious friend from an Islamic country to try to gain asylum in a European country because he fears for his life in his home country due to being atheist/agnostic. I don’t take the issue of Islamic oppression or any other kind of religious oppression lightly and I have studied Islam and can and will debate anyone about the fundamentals of the religion that require such oppression of non-believers. Instead of being met with debate, or a single factual challenge to any of the points I made using the Qu’ran and Hadiths, I was met with childish threats that led me to wonder if I had not posted in an online club for pre-teen cyber bullies instead of the page for “Rational Wiki”. That said “Rational Wiki” has some useful things on the actual website, but I can find a lot better and more plentiful references on any given Wikipedia page. I just don’t allow cowardly Islam apologists to pretend to be the friend of the nonreligious in the “Islamic world” without challenging them with the facts. These kids knew they were wrong and lashed out rather than debate or try to have some kind of exchange in which perhaps all parties could have learned something. The cowards who are afraid of being called “Islamophobic” for getting at the roots of the problems of Islamism, Jihadism, Sharia Law, Blasphemy Laws, and the imperialism and tyranny of Khalifa, have blood on their hands. These arrogant self-obsessed hatemongers are not stupid. They are cowards. They have made a choice to be intentionally dishonest and when I called them on it they lashed out with childishness because they have no facts to support their position. The fundamentals of Islam as expressed in the Qu’ran and the Hadith support misogyny, slavery, military conquest, blasphemy laws, homophobia, suppression of science, hatred of Jews, the killing of atheists and polytheists, child marriage, sex slavery, rape as a tool of warfare, and the death penalty for renouncing Islam, even if you never chose Islam in the first place but were “born into it”. The Bible also condones many of these same horrors, which is where Mohammed copied a lot of his ideas from.

Reply
REALISTICNIHILIST says:
June 3, 2014 at 2:26 am Edit
Who the fuck would want to read this?

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:41 am Edit
It will be edited when I go back to working 40 hours instead of 60 plus. Some of it may wind up in my book. I will change your names so you won’t be embarrassed when you are 80.

Reply
MISS ANDRY says:
June 3, 2014 at 3:38 am Edit
The tremendous butthurt of ABel AShes

Reply
ABEL ASHES says:
June 11, 2014 at 12:40 am Edit
I’m not “butthurt”. You clowns just made yet another perfect example of how easy it is to win a debate with defenders of Islam. At least the Muslims debate me for a bit and have a few facts to wield about in a vain to defend their faith before they give up and concede defeat. It’s not so much that I am such a great debater as it is that the facts are on my side. You guys just lost your minds immediately and never once presented a single bit defense for your silly-if-it-were-not-so-tragic supposed “point of view” (honestly I think the lot of you know better).

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18 thoughts on “The adolescence and intellectual and moral cowardice of James B Russel, David Gerard, and Olivia Guest of the “RationalWiki” Facebook page…pseudo-“rationalist”, artificial “feminist”, and fake “liberal” apologists for oppression of the so-called “Muslim world” under Islam.

    • I didn’t remember your name after I blocked you. I knew who Olivia was. I had never heard of you before. I will add your name to the headline so you won’t feel left out.

    • This guy is a broken record. One meaningless, unfunny joke ad infinitum does not make a very good argument or impression…on anyone. You’re just making yourself look like a clown.

    • …again, I never heard of any of you GUYS. I only knew who Olivia was. I think she is the only “celebrity” of the bunch. The rest of you are nobodies like me. I blocked everyone who posted those asinine “rustling jimmies” gorilla and “go to the gulag” Stalin pics and then I couldn’t remember any of your names. I know you are a legend in your own mind but I blocked you as soon as your responded to me because there was nothing adult about your words at all. I have more mature nieces and nephews who are still in elementary school.

  1. I stayed quiet during this debate, but was completely on your side. I thought the way admins handled the whole thing was childish. It was not the first time this week (and not even the first time that day) that Olivia Guest was throwing around her admin status/ being a general bully. I personally thought you presented a decent idea/argument and were attacked. My personal view (that I was too afraid to voice) is that all religion is harmful, I don’t know why it is in vogue to accept harmful ideologies if they fall within the “multicultural umbrella.” After loving the rational wiki site itself, I have been fairly disappointed with the admins and frequent contributors when they venture into Facebook. It all seems to be a childish game of inside jokes, memes, and quips.

    • Thanks. I didn’t post this because they offended me. They scarcely exist to me. I joined their group on FB simply because I join EVERY “rational”, skeptic, atheist, humanist type group on FB. I responded to a story that popped up in my news feed. I take this issue very seriously. I just recently wrote a letter to help a non-religious friend from an Islamic country to try to gain asylum in a European country because he fears for his life in his home country due to being atheist/agnostic. I don’t take the issue of Islamic oppression or any other kind of religious oppression lightly and I have studied Islam and can and will debate anyone about the fundamentals of the religion that require such oppression of non-believers. Instead of being met with debate, or a single factual challenge to any of the points I made using the Qu’ran and Hadiths, I was met with childish threats that led me to wonder if I had not posted in an online club for pre-teen cyber bullies instead of the page for “Rational Wiki”. That said “Rational Wiki” has some useful things on the actual website, but I can find a lot better and more plentiful references on any given Wikipedia page. I just don’t allow cowardly Islam apologists to pretend to be the friend of the nonreligious in the “Islamic world” without challenging them with the facts. These kids knew they were wrong and lashed out rather than debate or try to have some kind of exchange in which perhaps all parties could have learned something. The cowards who are afraid of being called “Islamophobic” for getting at the roots of the problems of Islamism, Jihadism, Sharia Law, Blasphemy Laws, and the imperialism and tyranny of Khalifa, have blood on their hands. These arrogant self-obsessed hatemongers are not stupid. They are cowards. They have made a choice to be intentionally dishonest and when I called them on it they lashed out with childishness because they have no facts to support their position. The fundamentals of Islam as expressed in the Qu’ran and the Hadith support misogyny, slavery, military conquest, blasphemy laws, homophobia, suppression of science, hatred of Jews, the killing of atheists and polytheists, child marriage, sex slavery, rape as a tool of warfare, and the death penalty for renouncing Islam, even if you never chose Islam in the first place but were “born into it”. The Bible also condones many of these same horrors, which is where Mohammed copied a lot of his ideas from.

    • It will be edited when I go back to working 40 hours instead of 60 plus. Some of it may wind up in my book. I will change your names so you won’t be embarrassed when you are 80.

    • I’m not “butthurt”. You clowns just made yet another perfect example of how easy it is to win a debate with defenders of Islam. At least the Muslims debate me for a bit and have a few facts to wield about in a vain to defend their faith before they give up and concede defeat. It’s not so much that I am such a great debater as it is that the facts are on my side. You guys just lost your minds immediately and never once presented a single bit defense for your silly-if-it-were-not-so-tragic supposed “point of view” (honestly I think the lot of you know better).

  2. Abel, I was apparently blocked from the page before you happened upon it, or am guessing that’s when you came in based on the fact my comments weren’t reflected in your account here of that tooth extraction of a thread.

    I laughed with joy at your rebuttal. Even now you are being accused of being “rustled” but the reactionary explosion of sanctimonious elitism on that page in the face of simple disagreement or contrary statements is unrivaled in groups of that kind, or any forum of discussion that operates under the banter of “rationality”. I was really quite taken back. And that Olivia piece of work… I can only wonder what goes on in the mind of 4chan reject “feminists” who get a power trip from being an admin of an equally arduous meme fest such as that the Rationalwiki Facebook page.

    Neoliberal morons are becoming the same neoconservative assholes they espouse to hate. Vacuous and empty arguments asserted as uncontestable fact. Dare to disagree and prepare to be called racist/sexist/islamophobic simultaneously if you can’t be censored outright. Or both in my instance here 🙂

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